Swimming pool liner problems get worse
Well, I thought about a month ago that our Europiscine swimming pool liner problem had been more or less resolved - Europiscine, as installers of our swimming pool liner, were going to argue with the manufacturer about who was to blame, but we would eventually get a replacement liner.
This of course was before they all had time to think about the issue, and try and pass the blame elsewhere.
The manufacturer prodded and poked and said it couldn’t be their fault. No surprise there then.
The installers prodded and poked and said it couldn’t be their fault. Still no big surprise.
Despite agreeing that if there was water under the liner the ‘wrinkles’ would be round and bubble like not thin and razor like; despite agreeing that when they fitted the liner there was not the slightest trace of moisture in the concrete - as they have said, they wouldn’t have fitted the liner if there had been any hint of a leak; despite the fact that to ‘take the liner out and have a look’ will cost 5,000 euro; they all cheerily agreed that it wasn’t possible to be sure if there was a leak unless the liner is removed so they can inspect underneath.
And if they can’t be sure there isn’t a leak…how can they be held responsible. So they are trying to leave us in an impossible position.
If we agree that the pool can be emptied and the liner taken out (the liner can’t be put back in if it is removed, it needs to be replaced, another 5,000 euros) so they can all inspect underneath, what happens next I asked.
If there is no water underneath who is going to pay for the replacement liner? Well no one seemed to be offering, and I know very well that I will end up paying for the replacement, while evidence of the problem gets carted off to the skip.With any possibility of anyone agreeing to pick up the bill going with it.
They have grasped onto the idea that since the original installers of the pool have gone into liquidation and the pool is less than 10 years old, it is the original installers who are responsible. It must of course be a faulty pool, letting in water all over the place. Despite the fact that when they had inspected it before fitting the new liner there was no trace of moisture.
Europiscine pools don’t have a very impressive record here. The first visit they blamed us for emptying the pool during the winter (we hadn’t, of course); then they blamed the manufacturer of the liner (who denied responsibility); now of course it must be the pool installers who are responsible, because they are the only ones not here to defend themselves.
I’ll spare you my thoughts on what I think of the sad spectacle of a group of professionals and insurance experts trying to get out of paying up a few thousand euros and trying to leave us, the insured, having to pay by all blaming each other.
Well Mr B. it seems like the blind is leading the blind. I used to build pools mainly for myself and friends and they were mainly out of concrete with fibreglass lining of concrete then tiled, though i did a few with liners and the problem you are reporting is quite a common occurence. Though not an expert by any means the question is weither the liner was made too big,in which case it will be almost inposible to get all of the creases out. Normally they are quite a bit smaller and need to be streched into position. To make sure this is done properly the air behind the liner needs to be extracted.ie the liner is sucked out to fit the pool and at this stage you can ease out the rinckles. If water is added before the air is removed the pressure of the water makes the liner stick stopping it from taking its correct shape.
It seems also that you have been incorrectly informed. Liners can with care be taken out and returned with no problem albeit a bit fiddly to line up the holes on the bond de fond etc., but this is a process that gets undertaken when a liner is holed and an underpatch has to be applied. I have seen cases where the manufacture has made a mistake, the liner was fitted, the pool filled, the liner was too big in one place and too small in another, it was removed, remade and replaced and as far as i know still functioning properly.
Secondly water behind the liner wont effect your problem, infact it can be a remedy. I have used the technique i saw a French firm use to get rid of creases. they simply remove most of the water from the pool then eased the liner out of its housing enough to get a hose pipe in, then used this small amount of water as a lubricant to push the liner where it was supposed to go in the first place. Of course if they had removed all the water from the pool they could have vacumed out the liner, I unfortuntly didnt have the equipment,but it will work. Believe it or not, most if not all pools leak from the concrete(ask anyone whos got a tiled pool)so this added water normally disappears and would in any case be pushed up the wall of the liner. So almost certainly not the original constuctor fault. Remember liners are often used as a remedy for leaky tiled pools.
Your costings also seem to be a bit out. Standard liner made to measure for a 10×5 pool with average depth of 1.5 metres can be bought from Cash Piscines for under a 1000 euros, you pay extra for steps and frises and there most be many small pool companies in the area who would fit it for a few hundred euros.
If however the company who fitted the replacement liner got it so far out, then fixed the bond de fond then it may be difficult to get all the creases out and if it was there fault why should you put up with a patch on your liner which would be needed to relocate the b-d-f. The skimmers and light etc should not be a problem unless the creases are in the wall.
By the way if you dont use Cash piscines you sholud give them a try. Their chlore multifunction is cheaper than the hypermarkets and better, their suppliers of liners and covers is almost certainly the same as most of the big name pool houses. I’m not sure where your nearest one is, but you can look them up on http://www.cash-piscines.com they may also be able to help you find an installer or someone else to help you solve your problem as most of the small firms use them.
I hope this comment helps. Trevor.
Trevor, thanks very much for taking the time to comment so thoroughly.
Our particular problem is that the creases are too significant, and are also (to a much lesser degree) under the skimmers etc so the chances of being able to correct them and then re-lay the same liner are very small. Very possibly the liner was the wrong size to start with I think.
Our pool is 12*6, with an ‘inverted pyramid’ deep end - and we went to europiscines (although they were much more expensive) because they had a 10 year guarantee, and we assumed they would be in business for 10 years!
Re the chemicals - a part of the reason why we had replaced the previous liner was because we had used cheap chemicals and these had left lots of stains and white blotches on the liner. So again, we had decided to pay more and avoid the same problem in the future. Not because we’re rich but because if a liner can be made to last 10 years instead of 4 it’s money well spent! (The other reason to replace the previous liner was that the part above the water line had become ‘baggy’, apparently due to the heatwave a few years ago.)
The one thing I am pretty sure of is that our problem is NOT water under the liner, and you seem to be of the same opinion which i’m pleased to hear.
Thanks again for your time.
Boris, just a quick note on a couple of pionts in your reply. If the floor of the pool is crease free, it means that the liner was the corect size on the floor and more inportantly aligned correctly for the floor, however if the top was not aligned to the floor this would lead to creases in the wall lining. Unfortunatly the manufacturers never make the apex of the corner and it can be very difficult to determine where exactly they are, leading to miss alignment. Again if they had vacumed the air out properly this should have been apparent.
Concerning the chemicals, have you thought of using a saline system. I istalled my first one 17 years ago when they were in their infancy, they came from Australia where they were invented and i have just replaced it. They are better for the swimmers as the chlorine produced has a different monocular structure,non of those smells and stinging eyes. It is much easier to control the chemical balance there by making maintenance easier and over even a short period much cheaper.
Many of the pool maintenace companies locally dont really want to know new clients unless they use the system.
Just one last piont on dealing with Europiscines who incidently dont have a good reputation in this area. Inform them or have a lawyer inform them that you have a guarentee,writen or implied to have the liner installed in a correct and professional way so that it will last the 10years of the manufactures guarentee and that the problem is between you and them and not the insurers. that you are holding them responsible and will take legal action to resolve the issue. There have been several people in this area who have done this and they found a quicker and more possitve response.
I hope this help. Trevor.
Dear Mr B. I am a liner manufacturer from Australia and would like to make a few comments. I cannot quite understand from the comments if the liner is “spongy” anywhere as this is sure sign of water under the liner. If there is no water under the liner, the creases you describe will be sharp and very flat. From my experience the problem with the fit of the liner relates to whom ever mesasured your pool to order the liner. Almost all liners for Inground pools these days are custom made therefore the company supplying the liner installed to you would have measured your pool and provided these measurements to the liner manufacturer. Liners are designed on Computers these days and then cut to shape very precisely by a robotic cutting machine. Therefore it is unlikely the fit of the liner is an error in the manufacturing, but more likely to be related to poor or wrong measurements provided. If the liner did not fit correctly, it should not have been filled with water as when the liner is vacuumed into place, the installer can see if the liner is the correct size and shape before committing water to the pool.
Your contract is with Europiscines and they are the ones who should sort out the mess for you. They are the ones who have the responsibility to ensure the job is done properly and I agree with Trevor that perhaps a more forceful (legal) approach to them is needed to get some action. Regards, Garry
Garry, Thanks for these detailed comment.
The creases are indeed sharp and flat, and there is no sponginess at all. For me it is clear that it was a problem with Europiscine and their pool liner…as explained above, originally they blamed us for emptying the pool (we hadn’t), then they blamed the manufacturer (who denied responsibility, of course) then they tried to suggest it was because we had neglected the pH.
There is and never has been any trace of water under the liner - even Europiscine admitted they wouldn’t have installed the liner if there was evidence of a problem in the pool at the time of installation.
So our situation now is that we are not sure how to proceed, although we have every intention of doing so. We are not well pleased that Europiscine can avoid their responsibilities (anyone thinking of buying a liner or pool from Europiscine please take note of their approach to solving problems for you before you pay for the super extended guarantee!!), but further legal action might become expensive and who knows if there will be other loopholes they can use to avoid their responsibilities?
We are speaking to our advisor at the moment.
Thanks again for commenting!
Cheers
Hi.
Interesting article;But can anyone resolve this problem? I have a small leak in the main return pipe coming into pump house. On a domestic central heating system, by putting two bungs in the pipes in expansion tank it is possible to cut into main system without draining down - you create a vacuum. Is it possible to do this on the return flow of pool to fix leak or will pressure of waterin full pool be too great? have had it done once and cost is considerable i.e. water to fill back up and 200euros for fresh salt.Anyone any suggestions?