Swimming pool liner problems get worse
Well, I thought about a month ago that our Europiscine swimming pool liner problem had been more or less resolved – Europiscine, as installers of our swimming pool liner, were going to argue with the manufacturer about who was to blame, but we would eventually get a replacement liner.
This of course was before they all had time to think about the issue, and try and pass the blame elsewhere.
The manufacturer prodded and poked and said it couldn’t be their fault. No surprise there then.
The installers prodded and poked and said it couldn’t be their fault. Still no big surprise.
Despite agreeing that if there was water under the liner the ‘wrinkles’ would be round and bubble like not thin and razor like; despite agreeing that when they fitted the liner there was not the slightest trace of moisture in the concrete – as they have said, they wouldn’t have fitted the liner if there had been any hint of a leak; despite the fact that to ‘take the liner out and have a look’ will cost 5,000 euro; they all cheerily agreed that it wasn’t possible to be sure if there was a leak unless the liner is removed so they can inspect underneath.
And if they can’t be sure there isn’t a leak…how can they be held responsible. So they are trying to leave us in an impossible position.
If we agree that the pool can be emptied and the liner taken out (the liner can’t be put back in if it is removed, it needs to be replaced, another 5,000 euros) so they can all inspect underneath, what happens next I asked.
If there is no water underneath who is going to pay for the replacement liner? Well no one seemed to be offering, and I know very well that I will end up paying for the replacement, while evidence of the problem gets carted off to the skip.With any possibility of anyone agreeing to pick up the bill going with it.
They have grasped onto the idea that since the original installers of the pool have gone into liquidation and the pool is less than 10 years old, it is the original installers who are responsible. It must of course be a faulty pool, letting in water all over the place. Despite the fact that when they had inspected it before fitting the new liner there was no trace of moisture.
Europiscine pools don’t have a very impressive record here. The first visit they blamed us for emptying the pool during the winter (we hadn’t, of course); then they blamed the manufacturer of the liner (who denied responsibility); now of course it must be the pool installers who are responsible, because they are the only ones not here to defend themselves.
I’ll spare you my thoughts on what I think of the sad spectacle of a group of professionals and insurance experts trying to get out of paying up a few thousand euros and trying to leave us, the insured, having to pay by all blaming each other.
Well Mr B. it seems like the blind is leading the blind. I used to build pools mainly for myself and friends and they were mainly out of concrete with fibreglass lining of concrete then tiled, though i did a few with liners and the problem you are reporting is quite a common occurence. Though not an expert by any means the question is weither the liner was made too big,in which case it will be almost inposible to get all of the creases out. Normally they are quite a bit smaller and need to be streched into position. To make sure this is done properly the air behind the liner needs to be extracted.ie the liner is sucked out to fit the pool and at this stage you can ease out the rinckles. If water is added before the air is removed the pressure of the water makes the liner stick stopping it from taking its correct shape.
It seems also that you have been incorrectly informed. Liners can with care be taken out and returned with no problem albeit a bit fiddly to line up the holes on the bond de fond etc., but this is a process that gets undertaken when a liner is holed and an underpatch has to be applied. I have seen cases where the manufacture has made a mistake, the liner was fitted, the pool filled, the liner was too big in one place and too small in another, it was removed, remade and replaced and as far as i know still functioning properly.
Secondly water behind the liner wont effect your problem, infact it can be a remedy. I have used the technique i saw a French firm use to get rid of creases. they simply remove most of the water from the pool then eased the liner out of its housing enough to get a hose pipe in, then used this small amount of water as a lubricant to push the liner where it was supposed to go in the first place. Of course if they had removed all the water from the pool they could have vacumed out the liner, I unfortuntly didnt have the equipment,but it will work. Believe it or not, most if not all pools leak from the concrete(ask anyone whos got a tiled pool)so this added water normally disappears and would in any case be pushed up the wall of the liner. So almost certainly not the original constuctor fault. Remember liners are often used as a remedy for leaky tiled pools.
Your costings also seem to be a bit out. Standard liner made to measure for a 10×5 pool with average depth of 1.5 metres can be bought from Cash Piscines for under a 1000 euros, you pay extra for steps and frises and there most be many small pool companies in the area who would fit it for a few hundred euros.
If however the company who fitted the replacement liner got it so far out, then fixed the bond de fond then it may be difficult to get all the creases out and if it was there fault why should you put up with a patch on your liner which would be needed to relocate the b-d-f. The skimmers and light etc should not be a problem unless the creases are in the wall.
By the way if you dont use Cash piscines you sholud give them a try. Their chlore multifunction is cheaper than the hypermarkets and better, their suppliers of liners and covers is almost certainly the same as most of the big name pool houses. I’m not sure where your nearest one is, but you can look them up on http://www.cash-piscines.com they may also be able to help you find an installer or someone else to help you solve your problem as most of the small firms use them.
I hope this comment helps. Trevor.
Trevor, thanks very much for taking the time to comment so thoroughly.
Our particular problem is that the creases are too significant, and are also (to a much lesser degree) under the skimmers etc so the chances of being able to correct them and then re-lay the same liner are very small. Very possibly the liner was the wrong size to start with I think.
Our pool is 12*6, with an ‘inverted pyramid’ deep end – and we went to europiscines (although they were much more expensive) because they had a 10 year guarantee, and we assumed they would be in business for 10 years!
Re the chemicals – a part of the reason why we had replaced the previous liner was because we had used cheap chemicals and these had left lots of stains and white blotches on the liner. So again, we had decided to pay more and avoid the same problem in the future. Not because we’re rich but because if a liner can be made to last 10 years instead of 4 it’s money well spent! (The other reason to replace the previous liner was that the part above the water line had become ‘baggy’, apparently due to the heatwave a few years ago.)
The one thing I am pretty sure of is that our problem is NOT water under the liner, and you seem to be of the same opinion which i’m pleased to hear.
Thanks again for your time.
Boris, just a quick note on a couple of pionts in your reply. If the floor of the pool is crease free, it means that the liner was the corect size on the floor and more inportantly aligned correctly for the floor, however if the top was not aligned to the floor this would lead to creases in the wall lining. Unfortunatly the manufacturers never make the apex of the corner and it can be very difficult to determine where exactly they are, leading to miss alignment. Again if they had vacumed the air out properly this should have been apparent.
Concerning the chemicals, have you thought of using a saline system. I istalled my first one 17 years ago when they were in their infancy, they came from Australia where they were invented and i have just replaced it. They are better for the swimmers as the chlorine produced has a different monocular structure,non of those smells and stinging eyes. It is much easier to control the chemical balance there by making maintenance easier and over even a short period much cheaper.
Many of the pool maintenace companies locally dont really want to know new clients unless they use the system.
Just one last piont on dealing with Europiscines who incidently dont have a good reputation in this area. Inform them or have a lawyer inform them that you have a guarentee,writen or implied to have the liner installed in a correct and professional way so that it will last the 10years of the manufactures guarentee and that the problem is between you and them and not the insurers. that you are holding them responsible and will take legal action to resolve the issue. There have been several people in this area who have done this and they found a quicker and more possitve response.
I hope this help. Trevor.
Dear Mr B. I am a liner manufacturer from Australia and would like to make a few comments. I cannot quite understand from the comments if the liner is “spongy” anywhere as this is sure sign of water under the liner. If there is no water under the liner, the creases you describe will be sharp and very flat. From my experience the problem with the fit of the liner relates to whom ever mesasured your pool to order the liner. Almost all liners for Inground pools these days are custom made therefore the company supplying the liner installed to you would have measured your pool and provided these measurements to the liner manufacturer. Liners are designed on Computers these days and then cut to shape very precisely by a robotic cutting machine. Therefore it is unlikely the fit of the liner is an error in the manufacturing, but more likely to be related to poor or wrong measurements provided. If the liner did not fit correctly, it should not have been filled with water as when the liner is vacuumed into place, the installer can see if the liner is the correct size and shape before committing water to the pool.
Your contract is with Europiscines and they are the ones who should sort out the mess for you. They are the ones who have the responsibility to ensure the job is done properly and I agree with Trevor that perhaps a more forceful (legal) approach to them is needed to get some action. Regards, Garry
Garry, Thanks for these detailed comment.
The creases are indeed sharp and flat, and there is no sponginess at all. For me it is clear that it was a problem with Europiscine and their pool liner…as explained above, originally they blamed us for emptying the pool (we hadn’t), then they blamed the manufacturer (who denied responsibility, of course) then they tried to suggest it was because we had neglected the pH.
There is and never has been any trace of water under the liner – even Europiscine admitted they wouldn’t have installed the liner if there was evidence of a problem in the pool at the time of installation.
So our situation now is that we are not sure how to proceed, although we have every intention of doing so. We are not well pleased that Europiscine can avoid their responsibilities (anyone thinking of buying a liner or pool from Europiscine please take note of their approach to solving problems for you before you pay for the super extended guarantee!!), but further legal action might become expensive and who knows if there will be other loopholes they can use to avoid their responsibilities?
We are speaking to our advisor at the moment.
Thanks again for commenting!
Cheers
Hi.
Interesting article;But can anyone resolve this problem? I have a small leak in the main return pipe coming into pump house. On a domestic central heating system, by putting two bungs in the pipes in expansion tank it is possible to cut into main system without draining down – you create a vacuum. Is it possible to do this on the return flow of pool to fix leak or will pressure of waterin full pool be too great? have had it done once and cost is considerable i.e. water to fill back up and 200euros for fresh salt.Anyone any suggestions?
Hi,
I have a europiscine pool that has developed ‘crinkles’ in the liner around the bottom drain. The area of crinkles is about 2 square metres and all stop at a depth approximately equal to the elevation of the drain point. The pool is 3 years old and the crinkles appear to be getting gradually worse although I have no categorical proof of deterioration. There were no crinkles when it was first installed.
I have complained to europiscines who have said that they are caused by not sufficiently circulating the water after a shock treatment – thus allowing the chemical to settle at the bottom of the pool.
I am not sure if their argument is valid. My first thought was that the crinkles were caused by passage of water between the liner and the concrete due to a leak from the drain. The crinkles are sharp topped and hence could be over stressing the liner material. Hence there is a strong possiblity that the liner will eventually fail in this area.
This may or may not be the same problem as experienced by Boris – has any one ever heard of a similar occurence?
As always it’s very hard to know who is right. I do know that there is always an excuse to avoid any liability. Suggestions like ‘inadequate circulation after shocking the pool’ or ‘the pH fell too low during the winter when the pool was closed’ are, to say the least, not easy to prove or disprove.
Our pool has a deep end that is like an inverted pyramid – so the actual deep end part is quite small in area, with the four sides all sloping towards it. This part of the pool tends to have leaves and rubbish accumulate, so I think the water there is perhaps circulating less than adequately. I would hope the design accounts for this, and the pumps are sufficient to compensate, but in truth we had a slightly similar problem to yours with our first liner, which was part of the reason that we replaced it – although our problem was more to do with white blotches and staining than wrinkles – which was perhaps due to chemicals settling.
When they replaced it, Europiscine (who hadn’t fitted the original liner so weren’t trying to avoid liability) blamed it on ‘cheap chemicals (eg choc tablets) not dissolving properly before entering the pool’ – this time we only use Europiscine chemicals in the pool and the problem has not recurred.
Boris
I enjoy reading your blog. i have a house in the Charents Maritime and can’t wait to retire and live there permanently.
What happened about the pool?
Dis anybody pay up?
Did you get a new liner?
Regards
Bob D
Hi
Nobody ever paid up / europiscine denied all responsibility, the inspector said he couldn’t be completely sure unless the liner was removed so he could see underneath (not very practical, likely to make matters worse, and still leave us with people trying to avoid responsibility) – we still have the same liner. We’ll be taking the cover off the pool soon so that if we need to replace the liner this year we have time before there are people in the gites – but really I think all the damage was done at the time of the faulty installation, and it won’t get any better or worse, until one of the wrinkles gets torn by a toe! It should last 3 or 4 years (instead of the guaranteed 10 years).
Perhaps when we do replace the liner we’ll get them all back again to watch the removal, to prove there never was any water under the liner, it depends how long it lasts whether we bother.
I think our advisor was hinting that we should pursue europiscine, but our legal costs to actually go to court aren’t covered by our insurance and there seemed to be a big risk that we’d just end up wasting more money, since the inspector and europiscine and everyone else who came to look at it seemed to be old mates.
Cheers!
Hi Boris,
I am a trained swimming pool engineer, (ispe).. There could be many reasons for this problem. 1,swimming pools with liners should have a lean mix floor not concrete as if the water builds up behind the liner in say the winter, or summer storms it has no means to escape, also should have pea shingle around the pool and if known that water builds up in this area there should be a pipe instaled to divert the water away,cheap chemicals will not make you need a new liner sooner, always dilute chemicals in a bucket of warm water first then place in to the pool , please note gloves and eye protection should be worn, and always add chemicals to water NOT water to chemicals this will stop bleaching to the pool liner,
has anybody givin the pool water a test???, ph could be a problemif to low i would like to know if tests have been carried out by the experts
If you or any one else would like me to help with any problems please email me at glennn123@hotmail.co.uk
Thanks Glenn,
Both the issue of drainage and the issue of pH were raised as potential problems during the investigations, and raised sufficient doubt for people to pass the blame – the pH was tested several times and was always OK, but of course that neither proves nor disproves whether in the middle of the previous winter the pH had changed too much. Likewise with the drainage – when the old liner was taken out there wasn’t the slightest trace of water on the concrete – yet the suggestion was that immediately the new liner was installed water might have started getting in from underneath. Not very likely I think.
Unfortunately we’ve put it behind us now because we realise there are too many variables that can be held to be ‘possibly’ responsible, although anyone who looks at the pool thinks it’s pretty clear it’s a problem with the liner being slightly the wrong size (or perhaps the pool being refilled too slowly?) – it really doesn’t look anything like a liner that has had water bubbles from underneath.
Ah well, only a week or two and we’ll be taking the winter cover off again – no more unpleasant surprises we hope…
i dont know if this will help you but i know many liner companies will test the liner and come up with the reason, Also the liner makers will normally keep records as a refrence this could tell you the size and other details regarding the liner supplied to your pool builder, liners can be very forgiving. can you tell me where the creases are please, refilling slowly will not cause a problem. with regarding the PH test your pool water source ie the tap where the water came from this will tell you the PH level, I have not in 15 years had a problem over winter with liners, after working out in france for a while i have not met anybody with much idea of building pools let alone of maintaning them, i feel that if you were to go down the legal route as many do they would cease trading!!,if you would like any advise on opening your pool just let me know
I think the problem was not to do with over-wintering but to do with the fact that we closed the pool for winter the day after the liner was installed and the pool refilled, so we didn’t see the wrinkles until five months later – I still think the installation of a wrong sized liner was the real problem. The wrinkles are sharp/flat, about 2-5 cm wide, 1 metre long, on the bottom of the pool, radiating out from a central point as if someone had ‘tugged’ the middle of the liner and then let go).
We’ve abandoned hope of further legal action since it would be costly and although I am confident we are morally right (we paid extra for a new liner with a 10 year guarantee that was wrinkled within days or weeks) I can’t be sure the courts will agree that we are technically right.
thanks, i can now tell you that it is a liner that has not been fitted correctly, if the liner is less than 2 years old you would be able to get rid of these without undoing any of the fittings, you would be able to hold your water in above ground blow up pools to reduce the water cost, this is quite a simply job to do if of course you know what your doing, if you feel like you would like to do this i would be able to take you through this step by step
Glenn,
I’m not sure I have the will to try – I’m sure I’d end up with the holes that have been cut for the skimmers in the wrong place and water actually flooding behind the liner!
But any guide to the steps to be followed would be very useful and well received – I know a lot of people come across this post when researching pool liner problems.
Cheers
hi,
If anybody has got problems with there swimming pool please leave it on the website and i will try to resolve them for you, all pools are different, Thanks
Glenn
Hi Boris,
A brief introduction, I am an Australian living in the Uk who has dedicated most of my spare time scouring the worlds pool market looking for the best products.
Mate If and when you decide to give up on the head ache of concrete and liner pools. Do yourself a favor and look into investing in an Australian made fibreglass pool. Don’t worry about your average 5 and 10 year warranties that should come with liner and concrete pools. There are a number of manufacturers in Australia whom all manufacture there products to strict government regulated standards, all of these pools come with 25 years warranty as standard.
My company Aquafil Water import Narellan Pools into Europe. Every single pool has to be installed strictly to the manufacturers installation guide lines. What we have done to make certain that the problem you have come across,”no one looking to take the blame” is as followed:
We have two installation holding points which the installer has to adhere to make sure that if there is a warranty claim, all appropriate measures where seen to before the job was signed off.
- The first holding point is to check with lasers that all levels are with in 25mm of the agreed datumn point, that the earth is compacted correctly and that the correct aggrigates are used for bedding and leveling.
- The next is once the pool is in the ground, all pipe work and services are installed but not back filled at joint points. Check that all joints are primed,glued and tightened correctly and that the plumbing has ran been ran hydraulically correctly.
These holding points have to be singed off and have photographic evidence with the warranty papers. All this so that when it comes to getting a problem solved, all corners have been covered. In saying that all of the above has been completed, you can be more than certain that your going to have a pool that will be with you for a life time.
Cheers
Paul
Hi Guys,
just a quick question. A friend of mine has a lined pool with rounded corners. Just recently a slit approximately 4″ long has appeared in one of the corners. It is horizontal and about 2″ above water level. I have applied some “gaffer” tape to the slit to prevent it spreading. My question is can this slit be repaired.
P.S. the liner is decorative at the water surface level with a band of “tiles” where the slit appears.
It sounds to me as if the liner has been floated. This will at first result in a liner that has water underneath usually due to either excessive ground water table, operator neglect (overfilling pool) or damaged liner,or accessories. When the water underneath the pool recedes (is drawn back into the ground) then the effect will be creases very taught and defined in the bottom of the pool. Once the creases have remained for a period of time the likelyhood of removing them is not very good at all. I am an installer that has been in the industry for over 25 years with almost exclusively liner pools. And it is very easy to float a liner pool either with a good 4″ overnite rain or simply as I myself have done with my own pool numerous times…forgotten the water hose while refilling. Also make note that the water lever does not necessarily have to fill to the very top of the pool. If you open your skimmer and peer down towards the basket. You will see a collar or seam that is placed to adjust the height of the skimmer to the concrete. This seam is the highest point the pool can be filled as it is very seldom every sealed. Another note… Liners have an average life of 5-8 years. Some will last longer even had some last 19-20 years but it all depends no only on the care given to the pools chemical balance but also on the location of the pool in proximity to cities, highways, etc. This is due to the residue that settles on the waters surface. The warranties for liners are against the seams seperating which would then be a manufacturers issue. Good Luck
ps… In response to the fiberglass pool… Just one comment.. Go look at any hottub or spa that does not have a cover on it and see what the finish looks like….Me …not a fan..
Thanks for the info, will pass it on.