Autumn is just around the corner and thoughts turn to heating – and even better heating that doesn’t cost much.
A couple of years ago I wrote about the trend towards using heat pumps (pompe a chaleur) as an alternative to ‘conventional’ heating – in principle a great idea since it extracts heat from the air outside and uses it to heat your property. It is supposed to save lots of money and be better for the environment as well, so must be a good thing right?
Another energy efficient product that gets promoted a lot in France is photovoltaic panels. You stick 20 square metres of the panels on a south facing roof, get a tax rebate towards part of the cost and sell electricity at a large profit to EDF. Another great opportunity?
According to numerous telephone salesmen both are unmissable bargains, but the strange thing is it is hard to find people who have actually implemented either of these systems and are actually pleased with the results – meanwhile there are numerous news reports about the problems, typically relating to workmen installing the equipment without the necessary technical skills, so it doesn’t work efficiently (or at all), and extortionate electricity bills far outweighing all the benefits.
Something that might be useful if you are considering one of these systems is an ‘official’ site I came across that attempts to ensure that people only get properly working installations from builders with the necessary experience. Should be invaluable to anyone in France getting one of these systems installed, and they have a directory of approved installers – see qualipv (for photovoltaic systems) and qualipac (for pompes a chaleur).
It’s also worth asking for a reference from a previous contented client when you are handing across so much money, and remember to check the SIRET number on the devis (or ask for it if it’s not shown) so you can be sure the builder is registered and the work is guaranteed for 10 years.
See also the comments below the original post – there are some very informative comments and also useful links to reports about system efficiency and how to maximise efficiency: see post and comments at pompe a chaleur
Meanwhile, it would be great to hear a success story from someone who has had one of these systems installed (ideally before last winter for a PAC) and is very pleased they did – either because of the cheap heating they now have (without a great big electricity bill following behind), or because of the big cheques they are receiving from EDF for selling surplus electricity.
… and if you are being hassled by the number of salesmen that ring you trying to sell you these products, just tell them that you plan to move house in the next 12 months – even the most enthusiastic salesmen knows they can’t justify the cost for someone who isn’t staying put
There is always the thought that we are after ‘something for nothing’ with these schemes. I have a theory that we all pay for any offer that looks good as the cost of our EDF bill rises to subsidise the payments for the fantastic offer.
I look forward to seeing people give a glowing reference and suppose that we will try to get on the bandwagon when it’s too late!
Same here, nothing would make me happier than seeing a great reference or two – fingers-crossed someone comes along…
Looks like the tax breaks for photovoltaic are to be reduced.
I’ve just seen a press article mentioning that in the US a typical geothermal heating installation costs $7500 (euros 5000). when we got quotes a few years ago in France they were more than double that. With reduced tax breaks on ‘green’ power systems in France they are going to look even more expensive and hard to justify.
Having lived in our rather ramshackle large farmhouse in the Corbères for over thirty years, we have finally undertaken a complete renovation. Having lived with ‘romantic’ wood burning stoves (supplemented with oil-filled radiators during the coldest periods), we wanted a clean heating system and, as we are getting older, we wanted one that would be easy to run and maintain. Having considered all options, we decided on a central heating system and heat pump. We replaced 1840s roofs with modern insulated ‘trilatte’ roofs that simply look like newer versions of the old roofs. And we have insulated all walls. We have underfloor heating (with insulation beneath the piping). The heat pump and heating system were designed and installed by France Geothermie in the winter of 2008/09. The system is reversible so that in the Summer of 2009 when for three weeks in August it was 39C, we had 20C – 23C inside. During the winter of 2009/10 when we had snow four times and temperatures of -10C and less, we had 18C – 20C throughout the house. The system works like a dream. I cannot compare costs with what we had before because often we obtained wood for free. But we also no longer have the dirt and inconvenience of maintaining a wood stove. In our contract with France Geothermie they state that the cost of running the system each winter should not go above €300 per annum and that if it does ever reach 20% above that sum, they will pay the difference. Half the cost of installation was to pay for drilling two deep bore holes in the garden. I’m sure this would have been a lot less had we had space for trenches. The other half of the installation cost was for the underfloor heating tubes, and the pump machine itself. The heat pump system is amazing and we are in awe of its efficiency and efficacy.
Brilliant Chris, just the kind of story I was hoping to hear, especially also with the much improved insulation you have added – I suspect the green systems work far better in a very well insulated house and it sounds very sensible to do the two changes at the same time. Thanks for sharing!
All I can say is that we’re currently getting three or four phone calls a week trying to sell us photovoltaic panels. We’re not interested, so next time, I’ll tell them we’re selling up, as you suggest Boris!
If I’d bought all the photovoltaic panels I had phone calls about I’d be generating enough electricity to keep the whole of Aquitaine lit up like a Christmas tree.
And you can’t hang up fast enough with any phone-call that starts with “We’re in your commune tomorrow…” or “We’re doing a survey, can I just ask a couple of questions about your property?”.
With all these things work out the pay back period. If its more than 10 years forget it. If they cannot be certain what it is again forget it.
Chris what is your pay back period based on your total outlay.?
We have a modern oil fired boiler. We have top quality insulation in all areas. My calculation gave me my outlay on insulation pay back in 7 years it was in fact 5. I fully investigated solar panels and would not touch them with a barge pole.
In our case, the payback period is, I feel, irrelevant. We bought our house for only €1500 in 1976 – very few people were buying in France at that time, and the villages were emptying of people, so many houses stood empty. We were very young and bought an adventure, rather than an investment. In the event, we waited a long time for property prices to rise so that any money spent on restoration could be recouped if the property were ever sold. Now completely renovated, including the heat pump, the house is now a high value asset. The heat pump has contributed to added value.
Incidentally, we have included basic infrastructure for solar panels should we decide to install these at a later date.
Shock Horror,
“In our case, the payback period is, I feel, irrelevant”
You should NEVER spend anything without working the pay back period out, its the only way to remove emotion from the project.
Thats why I did not fit solar panels as the claims have been proved wrong in britain and in a recent case compensation has been paid to a duped customer. If you have more sun than it MAY be worth it.
Heat pumps are great for very large areas, but in a domestic situation the cost outlay is far too great. If you sell your property it will be the new buyers that will gain the benifit, but novel heating systems are a risk as if they are proved in time not to be as good as claimed, they and can in fact reduce the price of a property.This has happened many times in the past.Storage heaters, elelctic underfloor heating etc.
Johnny, I’d agree about payback period for many things but with alternative heating systems there is also the environmental impact of using oil or gas to consider, and for some people I think that is just as important as the finances. Also looking to the long term it is difficult to compare payback periods and costs for different heating systems because it is not possible to forecast the price of oil or gas in 10 or 20 years time.
I completely agree about avoiding novel heating systems, which is why I was looking for people to post their ‘real-life’ experiences. Every year we wonder whether to change, every year we stick with oil because the alternatives don’t seem convincing – but I think they are getting cheaper and more efficient each year as well.
Ultimately, we have bought a heating system for our convenience and comfort and the running costs are well within our means. In addition, the system is ‘green’. Oil heating and gas were not options. Oil because of storage issues, gas because town gas will never be available to us in such a remote area and, because of the configuration of our land, we are not allowed to have a large tank of gas which in any case would be impossible to deliver and put in situ. The house is large so solid fuel would not have been an easy option for us as we become older and my physical disability increases. As we enter our sixties, we have bought a system that works in our location, that provides us with the heating (and cooling) that is clean and reasonably green. If, at some stage, we have sufficient finances to install solar panels we shall do so in order to reduce our bills as inflation, rising food costs, tax and changes in government policies eat into our pension and savings. I don’t consider these things to be ‘emotional’ but pragmatic use of resources.
Boris said ” there is also the environmental impact of using oil or gas to consider, and for some people I think that is just as important as the finances”
To most people it boils down to cost and many cannot afford to pay more. You are lucky if you can. So spare a thought for the many not the few.
However I totaly agree if you have the money you should spend it as you like.
Unfortunately I personally am not one of those who can afford such luxuries, but just as soon as I get rich I plan to be more environmentally friendly!
I don’t get this issue about heat pumps costing more than other forms of heating to the extent that they are considered a luxury. Our heating system was installed in a house without central heating. Upgrading from wood-burning stoves and electric radiators, any central heating system was going to require some additional investment. Whatever system of central heating we had selected, we would have required either under floor pipes or radiators and a boiler. We have the underfloor pipes and, instead of a boiler, we have the heat pump – investment costs that are the same regardless of the heat source. The additional cost (luxury?) was the cost of two bore holes in the garden and, if you want to talk about ‘payback’ then I think this is the only element where one might calculate it. To offset the cost of the boreholes, of course, we have installed copious insulation which ultimately helps keep running costs down. For example, in February 2010, during the third bout of snow in the winter, with temperatures at -8C outside, I had +15C in the one room where I’d forgotten to switch the heating on. I only needed another three or four degrees from the heat pump and the room was very comfortable within minutes.
You’re right Chris, ‘luxury’ was probably the wrong word. Being an accountant I think of luxury as meaning something that can’t necessarily be justified in terms of payback period i.e. an alternative can be bought and run cheaper. I apply the same logic when Mrs B pays over the odds for organic vegetables, for example, which I call a luxury, but not to my own spending, on an expensive bike for example, which as it’s for me I call a necessity rather than a luxury…
As you say, it depends a lot on what position you are starting from. If we were starting a renovation project from scratch I would certainly do the same as you have, but installing it now in our barn would mean ripping out every floor, which wouldn’t make economic sense (we don’t have underfloor heating), and would make the ‘payback period’ exceptionally long.
Well, our renovation was initiated when we realised we had a mega invasion of termite. The best advice was that all internal floors and dividing walls had to be demolished. Floors were replaced with termite-resistant solid materials which are also suitable as a foundation for underfloor heating. The floor tiles on the original ground floor had been laid directly on earth. To create barrier against termites and against damp, the whole ground floor was dug down to a depth of 50cm and filled with plastic sheeting, gravel and concrete before the heating pipes were laid, screed poured over them, and new floor tiles placed on top of that. New internal walls are either brick with insulation, or insulated (sound and thermal) plasterboard. In many ways, we took the house back to its shell, and then rebuilt a new house inside it. Because we had to go back to basics, it was thus possible to include many green features, including the heating, as part of the build. From the outside the house still looks like a traditional Corbieres village house but the inside is conforms to modern notions of comfort including being ‘green’. The overall cost has been the same as if we’d bought a new house in 2010 money, but of course the property itself, even in mid-1970s prices, cost next to nothing.
Photovoltaics and solar power offer the best blend of ease, cost and maintenance compared to wind and just about any other renewable energy such as tidal.
Hi Ava, how about compared with geothermal heating or heatpumps using the air? I don’t recall anyone who heats their house fullyusing electricity from photovoltaic – is it really practical (in the UK or in France)?
Well, a little time has gone by and I don’t think that we have had a real ‘It works’ without being a system that has been installed, virtually, starting from scratch.
As the man said, I’d be up for the Green Way if I could afford it, but I think that we shall just have to soldier on using wood, oil and electricity. ( Oh and gaz when we have a power cut!)